I must be honest. I tire of discussing the issue of gay rights with so-called religious people. They're blind to Truth. They refuse to accept basic facts, acknowledge basic scientific theory, or truly embrace the Revelation of Love that lies at the core of the Bible. Rather, religion for them is a tribal hallmark, something to separate out the "us" from "them," the "damned" from the "saved." And when one attempts debate, to intellectually engage, the "righteous" persistently demonstrate an almost unworldly ability to cling to the logically indefensible and breeze passed substantive critique with standard off-the-cuff remarks, like gay people are pedophiles and are comparable to necrophiliacs and those who engage in bestiality or polygamy (ironically, something that is okay in the Bible). Christian attitudes on matters ranging from women's rights to slavery and race relations (not to mention a range of sexual activities for straight people for which the Bible cleanly mandates death) have shifted radically from where they were even a generation ago. But that's the great power of unexamined faith; everything seems ancient. I'm tired of 'Christians' using what's supposedly good to justify horrible acts of evil. Harry Knox is correct when he says the "Pope is hurting people in the name of Jesus." Benedict XVI's intellectually indefensible bigotry, will need to be justified to his God, as will its consequences. I just wonder what happened to the great debates that used to happen in the Church. When did the Church turn from a diverse body of vibrant minds into a mind-numbed cult?
Well, only up to a point, Father. All vice is a matter of habituation, so even if you didn't consciously desire your current situation it is still a result of the choices you have taken, whether intentionally and knowingly or not. I know coming to terms with one's sins is painful, but it's something we all have to do every day.
Moderate Fundamentalist, I'll give this a go in the hopes that you care to reason and not merely peddle your soft brand judgment. In a word, your argument is flawed, because its unspoken assumptions fail to distinguish between a person's voluntary wrongful acts (which are sins because they result from choice) and his or her fundamental nature (which lacking choice, cannot be sin).
Simply put, we are not born murderers, thieves or adulterers. We become these things WHEN we choose commit the wrongful acts that accompany them. They are the result of considered and deliberate action and being wrongful choices, are thus sin.
Homosexuals exist, conversely, whether or not we commit sexual acts commensurate with being so, because by definition, homosexuality is a matter of fundamental nature, that we are attracted to the same sex; an unthinking and unchosen thing that simply is and will always be, regardless of whether or not we 'choose' to act in conformity with it. Our "habituation," as you put it, thus flows irresistibly from our nature, not in spite of it.
The question for you is whether the reality of WHO we are is something you regard as innately evil? And if so, the next question you need to ask is why God would create a species of human who, unlike everyone else, is damned not by choice but by nature (which would seem to contradict the salvific and loving purpose of God)? The reasoning, whether scientific or theological, simply doesn't work.
Of course, you can resort to the typical bulwark that all conservative Christians run to, as you do, that homosexuality is just a choice.
Of course, that argument bucks a growing body of objective scientific evidence that strongly points to homosexuality as organic and hardwired, and thus not a choice (including the fact that male homosexual brains are structurally "feminized" and thus by nature attracted to the same sex; the constancy of homosexuality at roughly 4% of population, regardless of social condition or culture; identical twin studies demonstrating greater likelihood of paired homosexual traits; evidence that homosexuality is a byproduct of linked genes that promote the reproductive and genetic success of the mother rather than the offspring, which would account for homosexuality's constancy in our species; and many other established and emerging factors).
So other than circular reasoning--i.e., the Bible says sins are wrongful choices against God, and because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, therefore it must be choice--what else have you got? If your arguments cannot survive scrutiny, maybe it's your interpretation of the Bible that should change (funny how no one questions interpretation--it's always assumed to be unerringly correct).
3 comments:
I must be honest. I tire of discussing the issue of gay rights with so-called religious people. They're blind to Truth. They refuse to accept basic facts, acknowledge basic scientific theory, or truly embrace the Revelation of Love that lies at the core of the Bible. Rather, religion for them is a tribal hallmark, something to separate out the "us" from "them," the "damned" from the "saved." And when one attempts debate, to intellectually engage, the "righteous" persistently demonstrate an almost unworldly ability to cling to the logically indefensible and breeze passed substantive critique with standard off-the-cuff remarks, like gay people are pedophiles and are comparable to necrophiliacs and those who engage in bestiality or polygamy (ironically, something that is okay in the Bible). Christian attitudes on matters ranging from women's rights to slavery and race relations (not to mention a range of sexual activities for straight people for which the Bible cleanly mandates death) have shifted radically from where they were even a generation ago. But that's the great power of unexamined faith; everything seems ancient. I'm tired of 'Christians' using what's supposedly good to justify horrible acts of evil. Harry Knox is correct when he says the "Pope is hurting people in the name of Jesus." Benedict XVI's intellectually indefensible bigotry, will need to be justified to his God, as will its consequences. I just wonder what happened to the great debates that used to happen in the Church. When did the Church turn from a diverse body of vibrant minds into a mind-numbed cult?
Well, only up to a point, Father. All vice is a matter of habituation, so even if you didn't consciously desire your current situation it is still a result of the choices you have taken, whether intentionally and knowingly or not. I know coming to terms with one's sins is painful, but it's something we all have to do every day.
God bless!
Moderate Fundamentalist, I'll give this a go in the hopes that you care to reason and not merely peddle your soft brand judgment. In a word, your argument is flawed, because its unspoken assumptions fail to distinguish between a person's voluntary wrongful acts (which are sins because they result from choice) and his or her fundamental nature (which lacking choice, cannot be sin).
Simply put, we are not born murderers, thieves or adulterers. We become these things WHEN we choose commit the wrongful acts that accompany them. They are the result of considered and deliberate action and being wrongful choices, are thus sin.
Homosexuals exist, conversely, whether or not we commit sexual acts commensurate with being so, because by definition, homosexuality is a matter of fundamental nature, that we are attracted to the same sex; an unthinking and unchosen thing that simply is and will always be, regardless of whether or not we 'choose' to act in conformity with it. Our "habituation," as you put it, thus flows irresistibly from our nature, not in spite of it.
The question for you is whether the reality of WHO we are is something you regard as innately evil? And if so, the next question you need to ask is why God would create a species of human who, unlike everyone else, is damned not by choice but by nature (which would seem to contradict the salvific and loving purpose of God)? The reasoning, whether scientific or theological, simply doesn't work.
Of course, you can resort to the typical bulwark that all conservative Christians run to, as you do, that homosexuality is just a choice.
Of course, that argument bucks a growing body of objective scientific evidence that strongly points to homosexuality as organic and hardwired, and thus not a choice (including the fact that male homosexual brains are structurally "feminized" and thus by nature attracted to the same sex; the constancy of homosexuality at roughly 4% of population, regardless of social condition or culture; identical twin studies demonstrating greater likelihood of paired homosexual traits; evidence that homosexuality is a byproduct of linked genes that promote the reproductive and genetic success of the mother rather than the offspring, which would account for homosexuality's constancy in our species; and many other established and emerging factors).
So other than circular reasoning--i.e., the Bible says sins are wrongful choices against God, and because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, therefore it must be choice--what else have you got? If your arguments cannot survive scrutiny, maybe it's your interpretation of the Bible that should change (funny how no one questions interpretation--it's always assumed to be unerringly correct).
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